Interview with Mark Knopfler

By George Fletcher - 20th Century Guitar, 1996

ln preparing for my long avaited interview with Mark Knopfler, I was less interested in posing questions related to his new Warner Bros. release "Golden Heart" than I was in getting inside his head and equipment locker. I wanted, no, needed, to know about the sound that turned the rock world on its collective ear at the time when punk and disco ruled and how Knopfler has managed to keep it fresh for all these years. How did the relatively unknown Englishman and his group Dire Straits singlehandedly revitalize pop music and return the Stratocaster to its well-earned (and undeservedly lost) place in the

Pantheon of rock and roll? What I learned was, not only that he doesn't know, but he doesn't play Strats all that much either.
I also learned that he has never owned a Martin, really likes old Les Pauls, has breakfast with Chet Atkins whenever he is in Nashville ("Chet's got the best jokes"), and views his soundtrack work as not very good.

One would suspect that Knopfler, maker of hit records, racer of motor cars (he once broke his collarbone in a celebrity crash), producer, writer and session player (Bob Dylan, Tina Turner, Chet Atkins, Randy Newman, et al), would be just as happy if he were to move back home, resume his pre-fame occupation as a journalist for the "Yorkshire Evening Post," and jam his nights away at some out-of-the-way pub. The self-effacing Knopfler is, admittedly, very untechnical. Viewing himself as far less than the virtuoso the rest of us think he is, he says that whatever it is he does musically, he's merely addressing his gift, it's just part of the journey, and when given the chance, he'll find a way to mess it up.

Truly a gentleman in the classic sense, the talkative and friendly Knopfler confides that conducting interviews beats working at the bakery. This was not what I had expected.
TCG: Do you consider "Golden Heart" to be your first true solo effort, or does that honor go to "Local Hero"?

MK: Yes, I 'spose this ("Golden Heart") is really the first solo record. But you know if I've writen all the songs for the band records, in a way they are too. It's just that is album gave me a chance to work with a whole pile more people, the biggest band of instruments really. It's the start of an island because I wanted these Celtic things happening. I've used some of the guys before on things like "Cal," soundtracks and stuff. Paul Brady is a friend and he put together the guys and it just really went on from there. There was a song that I wanted to do in Tennessee with a fiddle and mandolin and banjo and electric guitar and drums and it become this huge thing, Hammond organ. I didn't finish it, I didn't get to put my guitar on it in the end. I just ended up writing more songs. But really, that's how it was going, I just wanted more instrumentation that was beyond the band.

"Local Hero" was a film score, it's not about songs, it's about instrumental music. In any case, I listen to my film music and I don't know how I've done it (laughs). I'm better at the melodies, I'm not really trained to do it. You know, I'll be in the middle of (scoring) a riot scene and it's taking four days to do it, and people are out in the park playing with dogs and having a life and I'm wondering what the hell I'm doing (laughs). I've quite enjoyed doing some of the film music. It's good training I 'spose in some ways. But it's not something I would choose to do with my life really, nor something I feel I can do terribly well. I can't really believe that I've done 'em.

TCG: Do you like working with second guitarists?

MK: Yeah, of course. It's great with Richard Bennett, man. I've been rehearsing with Richard because he's coming out on tour and it's really, really great to have another guitar player.

TCG: You recorded some of "Golden Heart" in the States. Do you get a different vibe working in other countries compared to Nashville or L.A. or New York?

MK: Yeah, you do. I don't go to Nashville just to make country records because you can make any kind of a record there. The talent is so astounding and these guys (session players) are musical angels, some of them. They love to play something different.

TCG: So you're saying the session guys, when you bring in a rock project, look at it as an opportunity to stretch out a little bit?

MK: Yeah, absolutely. The best musicians, you know, they find their parts, they find their space in the song and they make it. It's just a joy. The other thing is, one of the chaps told me, he says, "We get 25 minutes to get to the truth in a song." Maybe they're enjoying that fact that with me they get at least a half hour.

TCG: How does working today in the studio differ from the early days?

MK: I don't really know. Just from hanging around, you leam a little bit more about it, but not a great deal more. From time spent doing it, really, it's important. I mean I started on my own, and then playing guitar with a friend and then having four-piece, so you go single, duo, four-piece, and then you get keyboards and two keyboards and you end up becoming a half-baked arranger just by accident. You get so that you are conscious of parts.

TCG: Having come out of the gate as strong as you did with "Sultans Of Swing" - with all of the hits, does the prospect of having to play them 'til the end of time weary you?

MK: I love to play the old songs. I don't necessarily like to hear them, I mean if I'm in a bar or something, but it's a buzz playing them. I can't listen to them but I like to play them.

TCG: Can you stand to listen to say, some Chuck Berry song for the gazillionth time?

MK: Oh, yeah... yeah.

TCG: As long as it hasn't been part of your history.

MK: Yeah, that's right. Although this album (Golden Heart), I can listen to quite happily, surprisingly enough.

TCG: How long did it take to put together Golden Heart?

MK: I don't know because the actual amount of studio time is not really that much. I spread out the sessions because I was writing a lot more songs during it and then I thought I had an album and then I went off and re-recorded some new ones because I was just feeling so good about everything. I wrote some more tunes and I wanted them to be recorded, too. So I came back and did some more and I had a session in England, and I was down in Louisiana - we did it in Nashville at the end. I was just chasing the songs in the same way as when you're writing a song, sometimes you're chasing it just to keep up with it and sometimes, geographically, I was sort of doing the samc thing.

TCG: Is there a part of Mark Knopfler that is a purist in some area?

MK: No, not at all. Nothing I do would really fall into a purist's category. I'm not a bluegrass or jazz purist. I really don't like that kind of purism or snobbery. I really don't have much time for it. I like messing things up.

TCG: What do mean by "Mess it up"?

MK: I would never do a purely bluegrass thing. I don't like musical snobbery. When I was a kid and I was playing in folk clubs, I would want to sing American songs but it was English folk clubs and they didn't allow that. That kind of bullshit. I thought that was stupid because it's the same music anyway. You do get the same kind of thing happening. For instance, my Celtic music is not Irish music. Actually, the Irish guys told me it was Scottish to them. Without messing with stuff, we wouldn't have rock and roll, we wouldn't have Flamingo, we wouldn't have Tango - these things come by things being messed with.

You wouldn't have America (laughs). Elvis Presley's first single was "That's All Right, Mama" on one side and "Blue Moon of Kentucky" by Bill Monroe - that sums it up. But in many ways, it's something which is absorbed, squeezed and something else comes out - a reinterpretation, if you like. I'd use anything. I'd use earth removal equipment on a record if I felt like it.

TCG: So actually catching the flavor is more important than duplicating the style.

MK: Absolutely.

TCG: What type of fellow did you find Chet Atkins to be upon meeting and working with him?

MK: I love Chet and I'd see him most days when I was down there - we'd meet up for breakfast. He's been coming along to rehearsals. It's always great being around him. Chet gets up early anyway and I'm always jetlagging so we're both usually up around 6 or 7. We can go and usually have breakfast before Nashville wakes up and I always get the best jokes from him. He's inspiring because he's still switched on and turned on by stuff and excited about things. And showing me new things that he's excited about and that's inspirational because it's a reminder - to remind you to pay attention to your gift. You're doing yourself a disservice by not addressing your gift.

TCG: Do you and Chet have any plans for the future?

MK: We don't have anything concrete, but I'd love to. Be nice to have a budget and a studio and a group - that's the way I would really like to do it. I think that I'm getting pretty well-placed to possibly do that now.

TCG: Where do the "Notting Hillbillies" fit in with hanging on to your gift and playing music for music's sake?

MK: I used to go 'round to Steve's (Phillips, guitar maker for Mark) house a lot - that's when I first got into the National Steel Guitars and this is from '69 onwards - maybe even '68s and it's always been Steve's house, to me, that was the main university of the blues - blues records and playing. I'm interested in introductions to reat old guitars - Nationals, Martins, Guilds and Gibsons and finding more and more about country blues, me being a maniac for a lot of elecric blues up until that point.

TCG: Up until that point?

MK: When I was 15 or so I heard B.B. King and all that - John Lee Hooker, Buddy Guy, Sonny Boy Williamson and all that. I was getting more into it with Steve and sorta working my way backwards into Blind William McTell and Blind Blake and all the rest, then fingerpicked blues. We also covered at lot of other stuff, western swing, ragtime things and all kinds of different things so it's imponant to me, that relationship was important to me musically, just following that path.

TCG: You can't appreciate what you're listening to until you see where it came from?

MK: The deeper your roots grow, the healthier you'll be as a plant.

TCG: Such wisdom!

MK: I didn't mean to be snooty. The opposite is great, too, because of the assurance kids have got. Sometimes the abscnce of roots makes somethings very refreshing, too. So it's a strange old mixture, isn't it? For me - just being involved in the roof and knowledge of roots... that's all it

TCG: Speaking of Martins and the Nationals - the old guitars. Have you every embarked upon a strictly acoustic project or have you ever considered doing that - the MTV Unplugged sort of stuff where you can really exploit the old instruments with no studio gadgetry, just get to the tone of the wood and the strings and the skin?

MK: There's something about that, but I don't know. See, I've been playing acoustic music all my life, anyway. When I was young, I couldn't even afford an amplifier. Besides, I don't much like the "unplugged" word, To me, i's just all the same. It's part of the whole thing. I don't really like the separation. I've never owned an old Martin but Steve made me a guitar - Steve made me seven or eight guitars which are as good as the old Martins and I have a couple of them. They're wonderful.

TCG: Do you work with your brother at all?

MK: No, I don't work with Dave. I helped him out with one album a few ycars back - I did a session for it and also did a big Italian TV show for him to try and help things out over there. But Dave's more or less proceeded along doing music for television and different film things and occasionally making his own records.

TCG: You mentioned before that you don't feel you possess any particular talent to pursue soundtrack-type work. Would you elaborate?

MK: For me, I'm not so bad on the melodic stuff but, as I said, like with sword fights - there are people who are trained to do that and they can do it better than I could. Fight to the death with a giant rat - it's just really not my idea of fun. In fact, I was actually playing with Eric (Clapton) at the Albert Hall for fun - one of the long series, by night and I was actually doing a gang rape by day on "Last Exit to Brooklyn" and horrible scenes in that film - crucifixions and terrible things, and I found it impossible in the end. It was just so hard to go through these scenes on film again and again and again and again during the day and go and have fun - my amp was just up on the stage with the guitar and I would go and just plug in. It was hard to come from those scenes during the day and then just relax at night. That's the way I've always found playing with Eric - just relaxation. It wasn't something that I had to - it was supposed to be fun but it was impossible for me to do that. Some scenes in "Cal" - there was an execution in the beginning of the scene which I never really quite got over because you have to watch it so many times when you're scoring it.

TCG: I found that "Brothers In Arms" in particular really touched me - that was one of those albums I couldn't take off the turntable. What artists have you been similarly affected by, where you just couldn't get enough? MK: Dylan records when I was a kid. I like getting music from people - a friend in Nashville sends me compilations of all things and I just mostly play them now at home. When I was young, I really didn't have a record player growing up. I would make friends and a lot of the times I'd just go around to people's houses and test 'em.

TCG: Is there one record that lit the proverbial fire under your ass?

MK: "Live a the Regal" was a big one for me - B.B. King - when I was about 15. The triangular conversation between the audience, the guitar, and the voice. The three cornered relationship struck me very hard. The emotion of it, the triangular architecture of it.

TCG: Do you see yourself doing a blues album someday? And with whom?

MK: Well, of course. Oh my God! There are so many people. Oh, yeah. I'd love to make a blues album at some point.

TCG But you wouldn't try to be a purist about that?

MK: No, absolutely not. Don't worry - I would find a way of messing it up.

TCG: What material would you choose?

MK: I don't know. I wouldn't do standards, I would probably write them.

TCG: Guitars, Strats - you seemed to have single handedly breathed new life into the Fender Stratocaster at a time when the Les Paul was king. Yet Warner Bros. only sent me slides with you holding Les Pauls which I found very curious. Is the Stratocaster as much of your signature sound today as it was in the beginning?

MK: Not always anymore. I am actually playing old Les Pauls lately. I'm a very slow learner but there's always delayed gratification which is good fun coming up with these things later on.

TCG: In other words, it's nice to play an instrument whose response is not as predictable as a Stratocastcr would be?

MK: lI's just different. Instruments are like people, they're all different. I try and do what's right for the song. The song really dictates. The song is king. Really, you just try to find the right instrument for the tune. I've been seen standing with the heavy old '58 around my neck for the past five weeks rehearsing and that's the one that's been round my neck a lot.

TCG: What gear are you taking on the road in support of this new CD?

MK: It will be the old Gibsons, a Telecaster, the National, the Gibsons, the Pensas. My amps will be Soldanos going through my old Marshall cabinets with EV speakers in - they're tried and tested and have never given me trouble.

TCG: How did you come to use Rudy Pensa's Guitars?

MK: Well, I walked in there after Rudy had the shop - he didn't have the shop very long, I just walked in to buy a strap. He was the only guy on the street who was nice. In fact when I got into New York yesterday, I Went straight down to Rudy's like a bullet out of a gun. He's been a friend since I met him. We both have the same obsession. He'd be a good subject for a story for you, George. He came to New York from Argentina with $100 in his pocket and he went straight to 48th Street straight to work at Alex's. He's just a great guy.

TCG: Do you have preferences as far as your pickups? Are you a "certain number of winds" type of guitar nut as far as your pickups go?

MK: No, I'm not a technical kind of person at all. That's probably why I wear boots because I have trouble with laces. You end up knowing some things just over the years - you just pick up certain things. I certainly love '58 and '59 Pauls and I wish I'd come to them earlier. I wish I had come to the old ones earlier instead of the later ones - the '7Os and '80s ones. The old ones are just great. But you learn certain things. I'm learning a bit about Telecasters now, the '53 and '54 Telecasters with the Black Guards, man. These guitars are certainly superior. There are certain guitars that just seem to be great on almost everything that you do. Rudy made me a new guitar - I didn't know he'd made it. It's a new design with Gibson hardware so I think that should be a very, very interesting guitar and a hell of an instrument.

TCG: David Gilmour once said: "As long as I've got a Strat, a distortion and a chorus, I'm gonna sound like me." Does that hold true for you?

MK: If I haven't got my kit, I'll pick up all sorts of things on the road and try to make it work. I think what you tend to do is, after you've been playing for a while, you play around problems. Just as in the same way an experienced racing car driver would drive around a problem. You find a way through it - different string gauges, different actions, different sorts of sounds - you find a way to play around the problems. It's not too often that things are insurmountable and that's just experience.

TCG: Do you feel that you have come to be a musician's musician.

MK: Well, I wouldn't say that at all.

TCG: How do you suppose you are viewed as an artist?

MK: I haven't got a clue. I'm not so sure I'm worried about that. What would worry me would be if I didn't have the respect of musicians that I've been playing with. That gives me a tremendous amount of pleasure that I have the respect of players and I would do anything to retain that.

TCG: Where do you suppose you are as an artist at this time of your life?

MK: I'm hardly off the launching pad. It's a never ending thing, but I get a great deal of pleasure from having the respect of great players. That gives me more pleasure than anything - I think the respect of the people who you work with is vital to feel good about yourself.